General Stream Discussion [Former: Dual Stream discussion]

Edit history:

Partystar: 2013-11-23 11:38:43 pm

Partystar: 2013-11-23 11:37:10 pm

Partystar: 2013-11-23 11:13:54 pm

2013-11-23 11:11:49 pm

first of all, sorry I've caused this discussion. I think the serious time thing is a different topic. In the end it is gonna happen that people, if not most of them (including me) just need serious time for hard to perform or semi-hard tricks. And even if you're not saying serious time, you still need focus. you have only one run to prove, it is that run you have worked hard for. You have that one moment, whether you take all the risk or plan a marathon safe strategy depends on the runners character and decisions (prior and during the run).

I see that both situations with or without dual stream, have their pros and cons. Without dual stream, it will happen that game selection gets strict like AGDQ 14. There are just too many games that were proposed. That would mean that many people might not even get their game for the event. Last year I was able to go with 4 other friends. If there is only one stream, that could mean, maybe only one person is getting his game through the selection process. That is what happened for AGDQ. Only one of us was able to get his game for AGDQ while 4 of us proposed their games.

But a dual stream comes with a few complications as well, of which a few are mentioned. Although I have no solutions, I think the best way to approach is to look for the pros and cons of both situations. and look what the solutions could be for the cons. Is there a solution or a workaround. I think an approach would be to list the most important characteristics for the event. That means you have to deal with some cons of either situation. In any cause, I think it wouldn't hurt to elaborate on such a choice, so that people have understanding and can make their choices accordingly. Lastly, I'm very sure that the ESA team will do a very good job. I really enjoyed ESA 13 and the Halloween Marathon was a blast too!!

first of all, sorry I've caused this discussion. I think the serious time thing is a different topic. In the end it is gonna happen that people, if not most of them (including me) just need serious time for hard to perform or semi-hard tricks. And even if you're not saying serious time, you still need focus. you have only one run to prove, it is that run you have worked hard for. You have that one moment, whether you take all the risk or plan a marathon safe strategy depends on the runners character and decisions (prior and during the run).

I see that both situations with or without dual stream, have their pros and cons. Without dual stream, it will happen that game selection gets strict like AGDQ 14. There are just too many games that were proposed. That would mean that many people might not even get their game for the event. Last year I was able to go with 4 other friends. If there is only one stream, that could mean, maybe only one person is getting his game through the selection process. That is what happened for AGDQ. Only one of us was able to get his game for AGDQ while 4 of us proposed their games.

But a dual stream comes with a few complications as well, of which a few are mentioned. Although I have no solutions, I think the best way to approach is to look for the pros and cons of both situations. and look what the solutions could be for the cons. Is there a solution or a workaround. I think an approach would be to list the most important characteristics for the event. That means you have to deal with some cons of either situation. In any cause, I think it wouldn't hurt to elaborate on such a choice, so that people have understanding and can make their choices accordingly. Lastly, I'm very sure that the ESA team will do a very good job. I really enjoyed ESA 13 and the Halloween Marathon was a blast too!!

MrLonghair

2013-11-24 03:20:17 pm

Baldioengineer

Sound-isolating headphones.

PresJPolk

2013-11-24 06:43:18 pm

So the runner can't be asked any questions the whole run? I don't know.

curseddolls

2013-11-24 07:10:51 pm

100% gamer

Quote from MrLonghair:

Sound-isolating headphones.

that really makes it feel more isolating and unsocial if people would be starting using this
for a whole run that only have a few harder trick moments.

Alko

2013-11-25 12:07:22 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

First of all, Partystar, don't apologise for causing the discussion, because it's a lot better to discuss everything as thoroughly as possible beforehand. This way, we might think of (and solve) issues, that we might have missed otherwise ;)

First question to people suggesting multiple rooms for the two streams: Which room at Nyeport would we use as a second streaming room? The green room? This isn't saying that your argument is completely invalid and one room is the way to go; this is just saying that I have no idea where a room for the second stream would be, which is equally valid a concern as everything else that has been said.

What I really don't know yet, is where the donation station would be sitting in this whole thing. Because donations would be coming in for both the red and the blue stream; does the donation commentary switch between the two? This, however, is an issue I think we can solve.

With headphones, I think the sound should essentially be splitted, so the room can actually hear what the runner hears. And I also think that runners should take the headphones off if they don't need them.

With respect to manning stations during early mornings/late nights: I'll just split myself in half, that'll cover the donations Kappa

Also, on the delicate topic of people not wanting to be placed against Cosmo doing OoT. I'm sure that there are runners out there, who will say that's an issue. But on the other hand, there are runners out there (like me) who will not give a damn whether there are three or three thousand people watching, and whether there is another half of the room that has 'a lot more hype'. Lots of this can be solved schedule-wise, by asking (yes, communication is a thing) runners, if they are okay with running during a hype spot on the other stream. We would have to communicate a great lot during the schedule anyway, because there will be a lot more of 'Oh, but I really wanted to watch Nev's run of Persona 4, but you put my run of Final Fantasy XIV right at the same spot BibleThump'. So between having finalised the game list and starting to work on the schedule, I would advocate asking the runners 'are there any games that you don't want running at the same time as you are on the other stream?'

Concerning closing down a stream in graveyard shifts: If all streams are created equal, that means we shut off a different one every night. Red stream first night, blue stream second night, pirate Sanik understream third night, etc ;)

I really don't like the idea of having a marquee scrolltext with the donations. I just don't.

Also, me and Nev can split up all the unwanted graveyard shifts for Persona, FFs, other JRPGs and iM@S. The latter of which absolutely needs to happen if we have two streams *___*
Walls of text H y P e

First of all, Partystar, don't apologise for causing the discussion, because it's a lot better to discuss everything as thoroughly as possible beforehand. This way, we might think of (and solve) issues, that we might have missed otherwise ;)

First question to people suggesting multiple rooms for the two streams: Which room at Nyeport would we use as a second streaming room? The green room? This isn't saying that your argument is completely invalid and one room is the way to go; this is just saying that I have no idea where a room for the second stream would be, which is equally valid a concern as everything else that has been said.

What I really don't know yet, is where the donation station would be sitting in this whole thing. Because donations would be coming in for both the red and the blue stream; does the donation commentary switch between the two? This, however, is an issue I think we can solve.

With headphones, I think the sound should essentially be splitted, so the room can actually hear what the runner hears. And I also think that runners should take the headphones off if they don't need them.

With respect to manning stations during early mornings/late nights: I'll just split myself in half, that'll cover the donations Kappa

Also, on the delicate topic of people not wanting to be placed against Cosmo doing OoT. I'm sure that there are runners out there, who will say that's an issue. But on the other hand, there are runners out there (like me) who will not give a damn whether there are three or three thousand people watching, and whether there is another half of the room that has 'a lot more hype'. Lots of this can be solved schedule-wise, by asking (yes, communication is a thing) runners, if they are okay with running during a hype spot on the other stream. We would have to communicate a great lot during the schedule anyway, because there will be a lot more of 'Oh, but I really wanted to watch Nev's run of Persona 4, but you put my run of Final Fantasy XIV right at the same spot BibleThump'. So between having finalised the game list and starting to work on the schedule, I would advocate asking the runners 'are there any games that you don't want running at the same time as you are on the other stream?'

Concerning closing down a stream in graveyard shifts: If all streams are created equal, that means we shut off a different one every night. Red stream first night, blue stream second night, pirate Sanik understream third night, etc ;)

I really don't like the idea of having a marquee scrolltext with the donations. I just don't.

[size=4]Also, me and Nev can split up all the unwanted graveyard shifts for Persona, FFs, other JRPGs and iM@S. The latter of which absolutely needs to happen if we have two streams *___*[/size]
Walls of text   H y P e

Edenal

2013-11-25 12:28:37 am

Quote from Alko:

First of all, Partystar, don't apologise for causing the discussion, because it's a lot better to discuss everything as thoroughly as possible beforehand. This way, we might think of (and solve) issues, that we might have missed otherwise ;)

I could not agree more! Go Partystar!

Well. I agree with everything. I've been trying to write a reply for the last 1½ days but didn't feel that it was good enough. You nailed it Alko.

Alko

2013-11-25 12:38:31 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Sorry about that, I should seriously get out of your brain Kappa

Wolfie

2013-11-25 12:42:26 am

Quote from Alko:

With respect to manning stations during early mornings/late nights: I'll just split myself in half, that'll cover the donations Kappa

I'm up for helping out with the donation station too, if you want me to.

Partystar

Edit history:

Partystar: 2013-11-25 12:51:15 am

2013-11-25 12:48:06 am

That is good to hear guys.

I agree with you Alko, with the "don't care about the amount of viewers" whether that be 3 or 3000. If you get one person happy, then you have reached your goal as a runner. But let's say, if I were to organize a marathon I would want to get all my runners have a good chance that their game and their skills are presented. If you play Obelix and Cosmo is playing OoT, then Obelix doesn't get much love. This is of course an example out of proportion. But I would want as an organizer that people see that Obelix is a cool game too, or that you are a good runner or something that is novel. I often just tune in during the marathons at random moments and I often get excited about games I haven't played myself. There are prob many people like me, that don't even care what game they see or like to be surprised. But if they have a choice then OoT will be their pick. Also, lets put yourself in the role of Cosmo running OoT. I personally might feel bad if I attract all attention.

That is  good to hear guys.

I agree with you Alko, with the "don't care about the amount of viewers" whether that be 3 or 3000. If you get one person happy, then you have reached your goal as a runner. But let's say, if I were to organize a marathon I would want to get all my runners have a good chance that their game and their skills are presented. If you play Obelix and Cosmo is playing OoT, then Obelix doesn't get much love. This is of course an example out of proportion. But I would want as an organizer that people see that Obelix is a cool game too, or that you are a good runner or something that is novel. I often just tune in during the marathons at random moments and I often get excited about games I haven't played myself. There are prob many people like me, that don't even care what game they see or like to be surprised. But if they have a choice then OoT will be their pick. Also, lets put yourself in the role of Cosmo running OoT. I personally might feel bad if I attract all attention.

j4sp3rr

2013-11-25 03:17:49 am

it's a really delicate balance that should not be taken lightly, again this discussions has many good opinions and sides, the thing is, in the end, we need to work to a solution at some point, i know for now discussion is fine and whatever, but like alko said we just need to take a lot of care and thought into making the schedule, personally i would feel all runs deserve equal ammounts of attention, and i would get a big hype out of knowing alot of people are watching me show off a new and interesting game vs just a few because cosmo is doing oot 3 meters aways from me, that's just me i guess but like we said we want to give those long games and less known and less popular games a good shot at showing what they are worth speedrunning wise, this is however very hard with the 2 streams during more hyped games, but i guess that is something we have to live with.

Edenal

2013-11-25 09:40:17 am

I agree that all runs deserve equal amount of attention. But all runs won't be getting it. Some games are simply more popular than others. What we can do is to give each runner and game a fair chance but I don't believe holding a popular game back (positive discrimination) is the way to go. It's a very slippery slope and will most likely cause more harm than good.

There will always be runners who are unhappy with where their game ends up in the schedule. Say that we would introduce the possibility to appeal the schedule position if a runner is really unhappy. There would be complete anarchy! Like stated before, scheduling will have to be done carefully. I think we can leave it at that.

I have faith in the guys doing the game selection and scheduling. And I'm kind of pleased that I'm not involved in that :)

j4sp3rr

2013-11-25 10:59:22 am

the reason we suggested shutting down the seconds stream for a while or restremaing stream one during a popular game was in the same spirit as:

Quote from Edenal:

What we can do is to give each runner and game a fair chance but I don't believe holding a popular game back (positive discrimination) is the way to go. It's a very slippery slope and will most likely cause more harm than good.

this will both give the super popular games all the attention it deserves, and leave the other time to give two games that are somewhat less popular a fair shot against eachother in the battle of the viewers(do not take this as a straight up battle more a way of putting it) in any case yes we should have faith in the guys doing selection and scheduling, but giving them ideas is not a bad thing persee i mean in the end the marathon is in spirit of the whole community, not just the schedulers

Edenal

2013-11-25 01:09:35 pm

No. It's the exact opposite. Life isn't fair. You are comparing apples and oranges. Positive discrimination is never the answer to anything.

Shutting down a stream in favor for a hype game is very unlikely and will with most certainty not happen. There will always be someone who's just fine with playing whenever.

Shutting down a stream because there is not enough content on the other hand. Is totally fine. But I don't believe that's going to be the case.

If you look at it this way. Viewer counts are higher during prime time, so if a runner would be scheduled at the same time as Ocarina of Time (since that's the example used before), the runner is likely to have a similar viewer count as he/she would have during the graveyard shift or early morning if that's the alternative. Which it would be if there should only be one stream running during prime time and this game in question is deemed so inferior to the popularity of Ocarina of Time that it should not be played simultaneously.

ESA is not *GDQ. And there are times the rooms in totally empty there too. Don't believe anything else! The goal here is to give as many runners as possible the marathon experience and promote diversity.

No. It's the exact opposite. Life isn't fair. You are comparing apples and oranges. Positive discrimination is never the answer to anything.

Shutting down a stream in favor for a hype game is very unlikely and will with most certainty not happen. There will always be someone who's just fine with playing whenever.

Shutting down a stream because there is not enough content on the other hand. Is totally fine. But I don't believe that's going to be the case.

If you look at it this way. Viewer counts are higher during prime time, so if a runner would be scheduled at the same time as Ocarina of Time (since that's the example used before), the runner is likely to have a similar viewer count as he/she would have during the graveyard shift or early morning if that's the alternative. Which it would be if there should only be one stream running during prime time and this game in question is deemed so inferior to the popularity of Ocarina of Time that it should not be played simultaneously.

ESA is not *GDQ. And there are times the rooms in totally empty there too. Don't believe anything else! The goal here is to give as many runners as possible the marathon experience and promote diversity.

ozzy88

2013-11-25 08:04:24 pm

Hmm...you got me there Alko. Headphones only when needed would be a solution I could settle for.

If we were to split the stream, the room I would suggest is the room Nev and Edenal used to sleep in. It's a bit smaller, can't handle a big crowd and so it would turn to "the B-stream" pretty quickly...and we don't want that.

curseddolls

2013-11-25 08:10:39 pm

100% gamer

I don't know if I'm allowed to write from my own point of view but yeah dual stream worries me.
For the biggest reason as I probably is going to play next year.
Just playing it self will make me extremely nervous and then on top of that have a second game playing next to me
with people chatting and talking about and to that person.

I don't know probably just nerves that spooks me I just hope that this whole thing will work out perfectly.

j4sp3rr

2013-11-25 08:38:00 pm

Quote from curseddolls:

I don't know if I'm allowed to write from my own point of view but yeah dual stream worries me.

and why exactly would you think you aren't entitled to your own opinion or point of view? of course you can write it at any time i mean why not?

in any case yes that is a thing as well, but then you could use the sound isolating headphones i guess

curseddolls

2013-11-25 08:44:09 pm

100% gamer

Reason why I said so is because I have not been there to actually play myself yet only viewing.

I know but how fun would it be to play at a big event as ESA to then use sound isolating headphones?
Then it would be like sitting home alone, just as unsocial..

I'm sure once the nerves settles it would be nothing special for me either,
I'm just worried that's all that the other game would effect me as a new player.

j4sp3rr

2013-11-25 10:26:38 pm

cursed, the halloween marathon was really a nervewrecker for me too, like svenne scheduled me for 10 am @ 3 am, i practised all ffing night, everyone went to sleep, i was still playing, i only took 15 minutes breaks as cooldown even though i was totally done with the game and only failing i felt the need to practise so strong i just kept going, but once i sat there and just did it, except for the stream difficulties i was having i was really relaxed, i just sat there and though, i'm doing my thing, people are going to love it, and everything went right, i had a hell of a run with the hardest trick in the game first try, it was god damn amazing, don't worry about the nerves, they will go away just go there and play the game

curseddolls

2013-11-25 10:37:25 pm

100% gamer

I know on the halloween marathon I got such a rush from playing like that on an event.
But to be able to play at ESA it's what have been my goal, and ESA is so big that I'm
afraid I will choke.

I'm just so worried on how the viewers will think of me failing on stupid skips because of the cursing
glitch jump. And after all it will be my first time at a major event.
And yes of course nerves will go down after a while in the game, I just have to explain
that its my first major run like this and hope they can take it into consideration.

My halloween marathon game will be nothing compared to playing Alice
its like night and day in difficulty.

Wolfie

2013-11-26 12:26:11 am

Haha, I know how you feel! First time I tried the hardest skip in WW i got it on the first try, and have been trying to get it again ever since. Shit, if I mess that up, haha.

j4sp3rr

Edit history:

j4sp3rr: 2013-11-26 12:48:30 am

2013-11-26 12:47:36 am

@Curseddolls:
i'll be there to back you up ;) i know how you feel, upcoming ESA will be my first major event too, i'll try get you through it and get your mind off the nerves as much as possible :D

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-11-27 03:46:34 am

2013-11-27 03:46:04 am

Baldioengineer

The volume from the other stream's players won't be "people right next to you" loud. There has to be a divider that dampens sound unless both runners think it's so shit & giggles whatever they're doing that they don't need it. People won't need to speak loudly with these microphones or the possible "people right behind the couch" mic solutions in the first place, there'll be sound that's like a conversation from the other room, not counting applause laughter and what not.

However I'll figure out a two-room technical solution if opportunity arises. Even when it comes to the psychological effects and impacts that hit viewers and people on the spot I know I can make it work. I'd prefer it that way over jamming everything required for two streams into the streaming room used for ESA2013.

~~#REMOVEHORROR~~ #TWOROOMS :3

Edenal

2013-11-27 08:42:53 am

Like Ozzy said, one of the issues of having two stream rooms is that there are no good options where the second stream would be.
- Green room is too small
- "On call" / sleeping room is too small
- There are no other rooms :)

What we really haven't discussed is if the "Blue room" could be used to host both streams.
- It's big enough that streams could be separated with ~10-15 meters
- Direct access to Ethernet ports from the switch
- Has daylight
- The plastic floor would dampen sound
- 5-6 meters to the ceiling. Less echo.

The downside would be less room for practice. But I think we could rearrange the hallway leading to the ESA2013 streaming room and fit a couple of television sets there to solve that. And still keep the area around the kitchen as a lounge area.

Terrible idea?

MrLonghair

2013-11-27 10:54:00 am

Baldioengineer

It escaped my mind! Blue looks so much better for this, thank you for posting that. The amount of separation that could be put between the two sets of streams would help player concentration immensely, not to mention just making room.

Wolfie

2013-11-27 10:58:40 pm

I thought a bit about Blue, but in the end I never actually brought it up. If we're gonna have both streams in the same room that's the definite place, I'd say.