New hardware for Ludendi

Edit history:

Edenal: 2013-08-26 02:00:40 pm

Edenal: 2013-08-26 02:00:24 pm

2013-08-26 11:28:49 am

As you might know we have some cash from the previous two events.

I want to buy a complete marathon capture setup including:
* A marathon stream PC with internal capture cards (we can use the Dazzles Ludendi already has as backups)
* Hardware scalers
* Audio equipment

Possibly a few retro-consoles.
NTSC NES / SNES / Genesis / N64 / Playstation 2 (ps1 capable) / Gamecube with Gameboy player.

What are your thoughts on what we want, what should be prioritized?

Edit 1: Added audio equipment

Thread title:

Edenal

Edit history:

Edenal: 2013-08-26 02:55:18 pm

2013-08-26 02:51:14 pm

PC
Good CPU (newer i/)
8Gb ram (maybe even 16?)
Regular HDD (no need for SSD)
Motherboard with at least 4 additional PCI-slots (in case we want to build it for 4-player races)
Cheap GPU

Capture cards
I'm suggesting 4x PEXHDCAP. Mainly because they work with pretty much everyone except composite. There is a new capture card on the market that does handle everything. But it's like 3500 SEK each. For that amount you would get 3x PEXHDCAP.

We would also like to run everything through external scalers before entering the capture card to make the setup much faster, more reliable and most of all easier.

External scalers
There are a couple of alternatives here. The big question is, do we bother with RGB or not? If not, the scaler Oasiz has is just perfect. If we do, here are 2 options.

Either we go with the XRGB-mini (about 3500 SEK each). They are supposed to work with everything, but I have not tested them myself so I don't know how they handle PAL composite, PAL RGB, PAL S-video and PAL60.
Pros: Good shiet.
Cons: Expensive as fuck, and I don't know how well it handles PAL.

Or we go with the setup I currently have. DVD-recorder that acts as a transcoder + hardware scaler.
Pros: Good shiet.
Alot cheaper. (~1500 SEK each)
External Recording capabilites

Cons: More tech.
Not XRGB-mini

For PC gaming we would get VGA/DVI/HDMI-splitters and just feed it to the capture card I guess?

[b]PC[/b]
Good CPU (newer i/)
8Gb ram (maybe even 16?)
Regular HDD (no need for SSD)
Motherboard with at least 4 additional PCI-slots (in case we want to build it for 4-player races)
Cheap GPU

[b]Capture cards[/b]
I'm suggesting 4x PEXHDCAP. Mainly because they work with pretty much everyone except composite. There is a new capture card on the market that does handle everything. But it's like 3500 SEK each. For that amount you would get 3x PEXHDCAP.

We would also like to run everything through external scalers before entering the capture card to make the setup much faster, more reliable and most of all easier.

[b]External scalers[/b]
There are a couple of alternatives here. The big question is, do we bother with RGB or not? If not, the scaler Oasiz has is just perfect. If we do, here are 2 options.

Either we go with the XRGB-mini (about 3500 SEK each). They are supposed to work with everything, but I have not tested them myself so I don't know how they handle PAL composite, PAL RGB, PAL S-video and PAL60.
Pros: Good shiet.
Cons: Expensive as fuck, and I don't know how well it handles PAL.

Or we go with the setup I currently have. DVD-recorder that acts as a transcoder + hardware scaler.
Pros: Good shiet. 
Alot cheaper. (~1500 SEK each)
External Recording capabilites

Cons: More tech.
Not XRGB-mini

For PC gaming we would get VGA/DVI/HDMI-splitters and just feed it to the capture card I guess?

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-08-26 03:11:36 pm

MrLonghair: 2013-08-26 03:03:42 pm

MrLonghair: 2013-08-26 03:02:46 pm

MrLonghair: 2013-08-26 03:02:03 pm

2013-08-26 02:56:29 pm

Baldioengineer

Audio: If continuing with wireless and the random BZZZT issue cannot be solved, it may be worth considering better quality beltpacks and receivers. The manufacturer of the ESA2012-2013 wireless focuses on karaoke products and not using six at once in a small locale. (current wireless stuff are loaners via niss3 of course)

PC: Needs to be hella reliable and well-ventilated, forget about low-db fans, make sure it airs out so well that ICs on the bottom of HDs won't feel warm after a week - and do add extra cooling to it. 16 gigs of RAM is worth it, it's cheap enough.

Capture: Make sure two PEXHDCAP work together first. Often units top out at two simultaneous, even USB capture boxes. BMI (blackmagic) may have a better solution that comes at a higher price (though that one takes SDI only, and is $995).

One cheap way to find out if any form of quadcapture is possible is to buy four of the $8.99 USB2 ezcaps from DealXtreme and jam them in and see how it works. DX also have several different USB2 dongles that capture four channels of video, even RCA only ones.

[b]Audio[/b]: If continuing with wireless and the random BZZZT issue cannot be solved, it may be worth considering better quality beltpacks and receivers. The manufacturer of the ESA2012-2013 wireless focuses on karaoke products and not using six at once in a small locale. (current wireless stuff are loaners via niss3 of course)

[b]PC[/b]: Needs to be hella reliable and well-ventilated, forget about low-db fans, make sure it airs out so well that ICs on the bottom of HDs won't feel warm after a week - and do add extra cooling to it. 16 gigs of RAM is worth it, it's cheap enough.

[b]Capture[/b]: Make sure two PEXHDCAP work together first. Often units top out at two simultaneous, even USB capture boxes. BMI (blackmagic) may have a better solution that comes at a higher price (though that one takes SDI only, and is $995).

One cheap way to find out if any form of quadcapture is possible is to buy four of the $8.99 USB2 ezcaps from DealXtreme and jam them in and see how it works. DX also have several different USB2 dongles that capture four channels of video, even RCA only ones.

Edenal

2013-08-26 03:16:13 pm

We did quadcapture at esa2012
But it was unstable as fuck. I believe it was due to the usb busses. Ive read somewhere that their buffers will run out of memory pretty quick, OS limitations. Pci-e doesnt seem to have the same issue. I guess I can try a stress test on 2 pexhdcaps sometime in the future.

Sent from my phone

MrLonghair

2013-08-31 01:40:48 pm

Baldioengineer

If better voice-mic quality is desired together with a limiter (speaker/headphone protection, really) I recommend buying the <1500KR http://www.alesis.com/3632compressor (4sound etc) right off the bat for Ludendi streaming equipment, as I took a major change in musical direction and the 3632 is no longer on my shopping list.

It'll be quick to learn and de-mystify and write instructions for. This would be used on the priority "couch" microphones and not only "pro-sound" everyting up, but also protect ears, make a better experience, prevent things that happened this year. I can demonstrate over Skype some day what a compressor and all that does to a mic, but be aware that it's mostly a thing that prettifies sound and nothing 100% essential, especially for the needs of a speedrun marathon that already sounds great.

(Personal opinion? Worthy investment for Ludendi.)

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-09-12 10:38:57 pm

2013-09-12 10:36:22 pm

Baldioengineer

Wireless headset complete kit http://www.thomann.de/se/the_tbone_tws_headset_863mhz_02.htm 1200
Separate lavalier http://www.thomann.de/se/the_tbone_lc97_tws.htm 170kr (unclear quality, surely good enough)
Despite being rebranded Made in China for whatever logotype you want-equipment but it is more trusty and also more modern compared to the existing loaner wireless. I wish I could try these out and find what they really are like.

The cheapest full complete wireless headset kit from a manufacturer 110% trustworthy everybody knows will give you something great is this from Shure http://www.thomann.de/se/shure_pg14epg30_t10_headset.htm for 1700kr each. Day and night difference in quality is to be expected - yet still, T-Bone would be better than the existing gear.

The mixers would share a single Alesis 3632 to prettify, clean up and protect the priority microphone audio, and that's another 1120kr from Thoman, and in my opinion a must when using headsets/lavs.

Handheld micsare bought cheap as muck, 3 for 400, perfectly fine quality even to use professionally (Behringer XM1800S). May require better amplification than what a mixer can provide alone. in order to not sound like *argh* and will have to be outfitted with a ball of fluff to prevent inevitable sounds that shouldn't be heard, they way they are to be used.

The thought was, if we go with three people a couch or two and a commentator behind a couch for a dualstream - one person uses the handheld mic in a slothenly fashion. In case of single-stream there are four lights and two handheld wired mics.

Shotgun mics for capturing button presses are at least 400 each, but it feels like overkill for the money. Placed at the floor a shotgun mic would be targeted at the runners crotch and pick up audio from the crotch area. Placed on a tripod above a TV/monitor it would be far better off. Any other kind of microphone is unsuitable for this, because of the way shotguns work - they pick up a small concentrated target of audio instead of a conical cut of all sounds that come its way.

I think they're överkurs.

In case purchased items don't work out desirably it's no problem reselling them for good value on the second-hand market. People are very happy to buy wireless equipment using illegal and license-restricted frequencies here.

And in case something breaks, I'm in good contact with both Alesis and Thomann (T-Bone's their own brand). Not going to be any trouble getting money back and/or excuses. Would have to be a businessföretag to get cheaper goods. And most importantly, buying audio electronics from inside of Sweden is crazy expensive.

[b]Wireless[/b] headset complete kit http://www.thomann.de/se/the_tbone_tws_headset_863mhz_02.htm 1200
Separate lavalier http://www.thomann.de/se/the_tbone_lc97_tws.htm 170kr (unclear quality, surely good enough)
Despite being rebranded Made in China for whatever logotype you want-equipment but it is more trusty and also more modern compared to the existing loaner wireless. I wish I could try these out and find what they really are like.

The cheapest full complete wireless headset kit from a manufacturer 110% trustworthy everybody knows will give you something great is this from Shure http://www.thomann.de/se/shure_pg14epg30_t10_headset.htm for 1700kr each. Day and night difference in quality is to be expected - yet still, T-Bone would be better than the existing gear.

The mixers would share a single Alesis 3632 to prettify, clean up and protect the priority microphone audio, and that's another 1120kr from Thoman, and in my opinion a must when using headsets/lavs.

[b]Handheld mics[/b]are bought cheap as muck, 3 for 400, perfectly fine quality even to use professionally (Behringer XM1800S). May require better amplification than what a mixer can provide alone. in order to not sound like *argh* and will have to be outfitted with a ball of fluff to prevent inevitable sounds that shouldn't be heard, they way they are to be used.

The thought was, if we go with three people a couch or two and a commentator behind a couch for a dualstream - one person uses the handheld mic in a slothenly fashion. In case of single-stream there are four lights and two handheld wired mics.

[b]Shotgun mics[/b] for capturing button presses are at least 400 each, but it feels like overkill for the money. Placed at the floor a shotgun mic would be targeted at the runners crotch and pick up audio from the crotch area. Placed on a tripod above a TV/monitor it would be far better off. Any other kind of microphone is unsuitable for this, because of the way shotguns work - they pick up a small concentrated target of audio instead of a conical cut of all sounds that come its way.

I think they're överkurs.

In case purchased items don't work out desirably it's no problem reselling them for good value on the second-hand market. People are very happy to buy wireless equipment using illegal and license-restricted frequencies here.

And in case something breaks, I'm in good contact with both Alesis and Thomann (T-Bone's their own brand). Not going to be any trouble getting money back and/or excuses. Would have to be a businessföretag to get cheaper goods. And most importantly, [b]buying audio electronics from inside of Sweden is crazy expensive[/b].

Alko

2013-09-13 12:11:16 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from MrLonghair:

Placed at the floor a shotgun mic would be targeted at the runners crotch and pick up audio from the crotch area.

So no farting on couch 8D

Erm, what's the reason for ESA to want to buy consoles? Of all of those I would understand Gamecube with GameBoy player most (not everyone who runs GameBoy owns one), but the rest?
Rather, shouldn't ESA buy a few RGB output cables, because we'll be going with RGB anyways, and really not everybody who owns their NTSC console has one? xD

Edenal

2013-09-13 07:35:25 am

Quote from Alko:

Erm, what's the reason for ESA to want to buy consoles? Of all of those I would understand Gamecube with GameBoy player most (not everyone who runs GameBoy owns one), but the rest?

Rather, shouldn't ESA buy a few RGB output cables, because we'll be going with RGB anyways, and really not everybody who owns their NTSC console has one? xD

I agree with your statement.

Svenne

2013-09-13 05:29:03 pm

What was that we needed to stream 3/DS games, whatever it was we might wanna consider getting that again?

Edenal

2013-09-13 05:52:45 pm

Good point Svenne.

I feel like with DS / 3DS capture. That's up to the runner themselves. That hardware is so specific that it's simply not worth it.
We got 1 suggestion last year I think, and it's not worth it to put up 150$ for that.

ozzy88

2013-09-13 09:42:18 pm

Agreed Edenal, if people REALLY wants to run DS/3DS games, the runners will have to fix that equipment themselves.

MrLonghair

2013-09-13 09:49:20 pm

Baldioengineer

Those people should keep an eye open for 2DS hardware mods, it's going to be a lot easier and cheaper to take video from since it's just one LCD.

Edenal

2013-09-24 01:04:23 pm

PEXHDCAPs are very cheap at newegg atm.
Presjpolk has offered to be the middle man, and I'm going to get one at least for myself and thinking of getting two for Ludendi. Something to discuss and decide during the meeting.

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-09-24 05:53:27 pm

MrLonghair: 2013-09-24 05:32:28 pm

MrLonghair: 2013-09-24 05:31:53 pm

2013-09-24 05:28:23 pm

Baldioengineer

Holy smokes $104 US. Would I be able to jump in on that deal? Got enough cash for that, splitting shipping and an eventual strafftull ready to transfer.

If it works well in my machine (1080p, PS4, etc) I'll sell my HDPVR2 for cheaps to any good ESA/Ludendi brother or sister who needs it.

PresJPolk

2013-09-25 12:24:02 am

I was just suggesting to Edenal that if any of the Skövde gang are coming to AGDQ I could hold them until then and we could save the shipping entirely.

Also holds for anyone else going to AGDQ.

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-09-25 01:44:29 pm

MrLonghair: 2013-09-25 01:43:00 pm

2013-09-25 11:06:07 am

Baldioengineer

e: Finally got some raw data on my income and outcome for October, calculated my budget and found that it's too risky for me to get into this PEXHDCAP deal right now, so I'm out, especially since it's not guaranteed it'll do its job perfectly, driver/hardware combination issues that can arise.

Current plan: Short meetup with Edenal next early year where I bring PS3, PS4, HDMI splitter(s) to see how they play with the PEXHDCAP, running tests for real, then I get one on my own if it works out great. By that time I should have rigged up a chromakey wall behind me anyway to put it to best use.

Right now: Awaiting a wired LR44 battery powered lapel mic for 375SEK total to try out

That would be a lot safer with regards to customs going through our packages and making up outrageous fines.

Bought a new HDMI splitter from eBay so I've got that on my board for:
1) testing latencies, if it's good move to 2
2) making sure it cuts, or work with a HDCP cutter
3) then to make sure that work with whatever capture-units.

It's in the HDCP tech forum thread on SDA, if it works properly I'll have "us" learn about it and get a few.

e: Finally got some raw data on my income and outcome for October, calculated my budget and found that [b]it's too risky for me to get into this PEXHDCAP deal right now, so I'm out[/b], especially since it's not guaranteed it'll do its job perfectly, driver/hardware combination issues that can arise.

Current plan: Short meetup with Edenal next early year  where I bring PS3, PS4, HDMI splitter(s) to see how they play with the PEXHDCAP, running tests for real, then I get one on my own if it works out great. By that time I should have rigged up a chromakey wall behind me anyway to put it to best use.

Right now: Awaiting a wired LR44 battery powered lapel mic for 375SEK total to try out

That would be a lot safer with regards to customs going through our packages and making up outrageous fines.

Bought a new HDMI splitter from eBay so I've got that on my board for:
1) testing latencies, if it's good move to 2
2) making sure it cuts, or work with a HDCP cutter
3) then to make sure that work with whatever capture-units.

It's in the HDCP tech forum thread on SDA, if it works properly I'll have "us" learn about it and get a few.

Edenal

Edit history:

Edenal: 2014-01-17 10:05:01 am

2014-01-17 10:04:04 am

Update: 2014-01-17 (Post still in progress...)

Equipment Ludendi has at the moment:

3x CM-393 SCART -> HDMI scalers
3x Kiss 558 DVD-recorders
2x PEXHDCAP capture cards

Equipment at Ludendi's disposal for ESA:

.....

Additional equipment needed:

SCART splitters
- Can be bought for 20€ each
HDMI-splitters
- Can be bought for 15$ + shipping each
Component-splitters
- Harder to acquire. Possibly get them from a Radioshack store in the US? Not a common piece of equipment in Europe.
Dedicated stream PC
- http://www.prisjakt.nu/list.php?l=2390176&view=l
- 1100€ PC. A must for big races.

Alko

2014-01-17 08:53:27 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Edenal:

SCART splitters
- Can be bought for 20€ each

Sry to hijack for a non-Ludendi's-hardware-question, but: powered or not, and can be bought where?

Svenne

2014-01-17 11:03:01 pm

I have a component splitter, it cost like 600 swedish crowns but got on electricity etc. that we can use, got in input and 4 out-puts

Edenal

Edit history:

Edenal: 2014-01-17 11:22:47 pm

Edenal: 2014-01-17 11:21:06 pm

2014-01-17 11:20:40 pm

Powered of course! :)

http://www.kungstv.se/kablar-adaptrar/bildljud-fordelareswitchar/scart-splitter-4

I currently have 5. But they are likely to get damaged when used 24/7 for a week. :S
One of my splitters doesn't sync properly anymore (still works with the TV) and another one lost the color red. But I got replacements for those free of charge.

Svenne

2014-01-18 09:48:02 pm

So is that everything we need on that list? Gonna talk with frezy about getting the money for it!